Comments on: Male Dom Female Sub http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402 Sponsored by Blowfish: Good Products for Great Sex. Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:24:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: another Robert? http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-97547 Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:45:48 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-97547 (So I just now noticed this... it's not news, I guess.) As a male who has had this involuntary (and not indulged) fantasy for decades, my theory (only that and nothing more) is that there is somewhat more truth to Greta's notion that the fem/sub images advance rather than setting back feminism. (Self-serving of me? Undeniably. But I do consider the question objectively: What might explain any recent trend of fem/sub. images or literature?) My theory is that there are some women who will "submit" for money in one form or another and that is their business. Some others might be genuinely, innately submissive, and I definitely give them credit for having the courage to act out the fantasy if it pleases them. That IS a form of individual courage and self-confidence. I think in most cases it is essential the "sub" to have (1.) at least equal control of the role-playing. (2.) respect for and trust in the "dominant" male. (Respect can be in a number of different forms: physical attractiveness might be one. Ideally, I think the respect should be mutual, and the activity should be a game willingly played (with definite, understood limits.) Key: Of those really "into" any erotica that is not regarded as normal (and I have no idea what percentage of participants are so innately "programmed") they probably had SOME kind of sensory experience in childhood that became etched into the erotic part of the brain: It is an involuntary inclination, interest, or passion, in its origin. Speaking for myself, I do not indulge or participate in the fantasized activity because it IS unrealistic - safe to say most females sensibly avoid being "submissive" for obvious reasons, and because my circumstances and "initiative" have not led me to try very hard to find willing (adult-only!) females with the submissive inclination or open to that as an option. And "heavy" s/m is a turn-off to me. (So I just now noticed this… it’s not news, I guess.) As a male who has had this involuntary (and not indulged) fantasy for decades, my theory (only that and nothing more) is that there is somewhat more truth to Greta’s notion that the fem/sub images advance rather than setting back feminism. (Self-serving of me? Undeniably. But I do consider the question objectively: What might explain any recent trend of fem/sub. images or literature?) My theory is that there are some women who will “submit” for money in one form or another and that is their business. Some others might be genuinely, innately submissive, and I definitely give them credit for having the courage to act out the fantasy if it pleases them. That IS a form of individual courage and self-confidence. I think in most cases it is essential the “sub” to have (1.) at least equal control of the role-playing. (2.) respect for and trust in the “dominant” male. (Respect can be in a number of different forms: physical attractiveness might be one. Ideally, I think the respect should be mutual, and the activity should be a game willingly played (with definite, understood limits.) Key: Of those really “into” any erotica that is not regarded as normal (and I have no idea what percentage of participants are so innately “programmed”) they probably had SOME kind of sensory experience in childhood that became etched into the erotic part of the brain: It is an involuntary inclination, interest, or passion, in its origin. Speaking for myself, I do not indulge or participate in the fantasized activity because it IS unrealistic - safe to say most females sensibly avoid being “submissive” for obvious reasons, and because my circumstances and “initiative” have not led me to try very hard to find willing (adult-only!) females with the submissive inclination or open to that as an option. And “heavy” s/m is a turn-off to me.

]]> by: emma http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3976 Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:02:27 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3976 Nice theory BUT - isn't it just more likely that women have eroticised the abuse that so many experience? This is hardly a new idea. The justification often given for lesbian SM porn's replicating of 'daddy' fantasies is that this helps women who have experienced childhood sexual abuse to work through the experience in a situation in which they are in control. Which I think is a pile of crap personally, but there you go. I think this is part of the same backlash against feminism that leads women to think it's 'empowering' to have breast implants or take up pole dancing personally. It's currently so taboo to be feminist that women are retreating into to this kind of stuff. Nice theory BUT - isn’t it just more likely that women have eroticised the abuse that so many experience? This is hardly a new idea. The justification often given for lesbian SM porn’s replicating of ‘daddy’ fantasies is that this helps women who have experienced childhood sexual abuse to work through the experience in a situation in which they are in control. Which I think is a pile of crap personally, but there you go. I think this is part of the same backlash against feminism that leads women to think it’s ‘empowering’ to have breast implants or take up pole dancing personally. It’s currently so taboo to be feminist that women are retreating into to this kind of stuff.

]]> by: Oni Baba http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3887 Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:40:46 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3887 If I understand correctly, your post suggests that the dominant male/submissive female trend in porn corresponds to a way for women to escape the everyday struggle against sexism. But is accepting pornographic depictions of female submission, and is the sexualization of female submission, really an escape from this struggle, as opposed to yet another sign that true gender equality is still not near in sight? You wrote: "In fact, you could argue that this dynamic is happening because of the opposite of sexism. Women have had submissive and masochistic fantasies for ages, and porn is finally starting to cater to our goddamn fantasies of being the helpless, vulnerable center of attention/ object of desire—not just men’s." Do women actually have genuine submissive or masochistic fantasies, or are they just brainwashed by patriarchy and by the male-centered sexual discourse? While I consider that the whole argument of "women can't think for themselves, they can't choose what's right for them" is paternalistic and dehumanizing (not to mention anti-feminist), I can't help but feel that women are indoctrinated into those fantasies, either by our patriarchical culture or by traumatic personal experiences. My feeling is that women would surely feel more complete and genuine in their sexuality if their sexual experiences and fantasies were free of the cultural requirement that one partner dominates the other. Don't you think that in a society where true gender equality would exist, women would still have so-called submissive or masochistic fantasies? One of the issues I have with porn, is that it is (for the most part) produce by men, and that it objectifies women for the masturbatory pleasure and needs of millions o other men. Therefore, I am extremely doubtful that this dominant male/submissive female trend in porn is actually a sign that the porn industry is, as you assert, finally taking in account the desires of women. Actually, I find it quite scary that pornographic depictions of male dominance of females is being marketed, or at least spoken of, as being representative of women's fantasies and desires. How convenient it is, for the porn industry, to say that after all, women too enjoy such displays of control, dominance, and - to a certain extent - violence and hate against them. *** I'm a feminist from Canada and I stumbled upon this post via the last Carnival of Feminists. You will have guessed from my comment that, as a feminist, I strongly oppose pornograhy and the commerce of the female body at large. From what I have learned and experienced so far in my life, I consider that porn is harmful to women. This does not mean, however, that I don't keep an open mind, or that I don't appreciate the opportunity to discuss the issue with people who think otherwise. Therefore, I would be thankful if you would kindly accept to answer the few questions that I have posed in this comment. Thanks! If I understand correctly, your post suggests that the dominant male/submissive female trend in porn corresponds to a way for women to escape the everyday struggle against sexism.

But is accepting pornographic depictions of female submission, and is the sexualization of female submission, really an escape from this struggle, as opposed to yet another sign that true gender equality is still not near in sight?

You wrote: “In fact, you could argue that this dynamic is happening because of the opposite of sexism. Women have had submissive and masochistic fantasies for ages, and porn is finally starting to cater to our goddamn fantasies of being the helpless, vulnerable center of attention/ object of desire—not just men’s.”

Do women actually have genuine submissive or masochistic fantasies, or are they just brainwashed by patriarchy and by the male-centered sexual discourse?
While I consider that the whole argument of “women can’t think for themselves, they can’t choose what’s right for them” is paternalistic and dehumanizing (not to mention anti-feminist), I can’t help but feel that women are indoctrinated into those fantasies, either by our patriarchical culture or by traumatic personal experiences. My feeling is that women would surely feel more complete and genuine in their sexuality if their sexual experiences and fantasies were free of the cultural requirement that one partner dominates the other.

Don’t you think that in a society where true gender equality would exist, women would still have so-called submissive or masochistic fantasies?

One of the issues I have with porn, is that it is (for the most part) produce by men, and that it objectifies women for the masturbatory pleasure and needs of millions o other men. Therefore, I am extremely doubtful that this dominant male/submissive female trend in porn is actually a sign that the porn industry is, as you assert, finally taking in account the desires of women.

Actually, I find it quite scary that pornographic depictions of male dominance of females is being marketed, or at least spoken of, as being representative of women’s fantasies and desires. How convenient it is, for the porn industry, to say that after all, women too enjoy such displays of control, dominance, and - to a certain extent - violence and hate against them.

***

I’m a feminist from Canada and I stumbled upon this post via the last Carnival of Feminists. You will have guessed from my comment that, as a feminist, I strongly oppose pornograhy and the commerce of the female body at large.

From what I have learned and experienced so far in my life, I consider that porn is harmful to women.

This does not mean, however, that I don’t keep an open mind, or that I don’t appreciate the opportunity to discuss the issue with people who think otherwise. Therefore, I would be thankful if you would kindly accept to answer the few questions that I have posed in this comment.

Thanks!

]]> by: Recommended Reading: Feminist Bloggers : Elaine Vigneault http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3875 Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:23:45 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3875 [...] Porn [...] […] Porn […]

]]> by: whatsername http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3859 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:42:46 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3859 Wow! I just could not agree more! I'm so glad to see something I've considered myself laid out so much better than I was capable of. :) Wow! I just could not agree more! I’m so glad to see something I’ve considered myself laid out so much better than I was capable of. :)

]]> by: The 46th Carnival of Feminists « Cubically Challenged http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3837 Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:36:23 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3837 [...] 2. Greta Christina writes on the increasing amount of dominant-male-submissive-female porn that she is seeing, enjoyed by both men and women. She uses this to construct some very interesting arguments on how a fantasy about prescribed roles can sometimes be an escape from the constant struggle to reverse those roles, in reality! [...] […] 2. Greta Christina writes on the increasing amount of dominant-male-submissive-female porn that she is seeing, enjoyed by both men and women. She uses this to construct some very interesting arguments on how a fantasy about prescribed roles can sometimes be an escape from the constant struggle to reverse those roles, in reality! […]

]]> by: Torri http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3753 Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:47:20 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3753 I find this pretty interesting myself, I'm kind of looking at it through a yaoi fan's eyes. Just to explain Yaoi is male/male porn/love stories/comics/animations written by and for women. It's the first kind of porn I got into and strangely enough it was actually the non-consensual/SM themed stories that started out before I moved on to other things. It's another form of escapism for a lot of women, because both of the characters are men you're not forced to identify with either the dom or the sub. Like you were saying in your article you could identify with the sub and fantasize about being helpless and/or compliant without feeling like you'd 'betrayed' your gender for taking a steriotypical role because I was identifying with a male character. I could read about themes that would make me very uncomfortable at the time had the gender of the characters depicted been female. I find this pretty interesting myself, I’m kind of looking at it through a yaoi fan’s eyes. Just to explain Yaoi is male/male porn/love stories/comics/animations written by and for women. It’s the first kind of porn I got into and strangely enough it was actually the non-consensual/SM themed stories that started out before I moved on to other things.
It’s another form of escapism for a lot of women, because both of the characters are men you’re not forced to identify with either the dom or the sub. Like you were saying in your article you could identify with the sub and fantasize about being helpless and/or compliant without feeling like you’d ‘betrayed’ your gender for taking a steriotypical role because I was identifying with a male character. I could read about themes that would make me very uncomfortable at the time had the gender of the characters depicted been female.

]]> by: Devon http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3644 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:46:44 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3644 "When women legally had less power than men, there was nothing titillating about the idea." I think that's true. I have a male dom friend who visited Japan for an extended period of time. He said that because women are so culturally submissive there, it was impossible for him to find it hot in a sexual situation. If she's going along with his commands because she's used to it and is expected to, he doesn't feel masterful at all. And she probably doesn't feel submissive, either, although I don't know if he asked. “When women legally had less power than men, there was nothing titillating about the idea.”

I think that’s true. I have a male dom friend who visited Japan for an extended period of time. He said that because women are so culturally submissive there, it was impossible for him to find it hot in a sexual situation. If she’s going along with his commands because she’s used to it and is expected to, he doesn’t feel masterful at all. And she probably doesn’t feel submissive, either, although I don’t know if he asked.

]]> by: Robert http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3602 Sat, 22 Sep 2007 06:37:58 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3602 Interesting observations, and I wonder if there's also a forbidden fruit angle to this. Now that society has gotten used to the idea that women should have equal power, the idea of women surrendering power becomes "forbidden." And we all know that a certain amount of transgressing normal boundaries can be very sexy. :) When women legally had less power than men, there was nothing titillating about the idea. Interesting observations, and I wonder if there’s also a forbidden fruit angle to this. Now that society has gotten used to the idea that women should have equal power, the idea of women surrendering power becomes “forbidden.” And we all know that a certain amount of transgressing normal boundaries can be very sexy. :) When women legally had less power than men, there was nothing titillating about the idea.

]]> by: Wintermute http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3601 Sat, 22 Sep 2007 04:45:39 +0000 http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/male-dom-female-sub/402#comment-3601 I write M/F, F/M and a bit of F/F spanking porn, although I definitely write more stories that are M/F these days. I don't think that there's anything to this beyond how I'm feeling at the moment. Most of the email I get from people who like my stories is from women who like the M/F stories. I get less email from men about my F/M stories. I think that the Internet has allowed women to come out as spanking bottoms. Most of the spanking blogs are written by intelligent, articulate women who love to be spanked. Women see these blogs and I think that it assures them that they're not alone. I write M/F, F/M and a bit of F/F spanking porn, although I definitely write more stories that are M/F these days. I don’t think that there’s anything to this beyond how I’m feeling at the moment.

Most of the email I get from people who like my stories is from women who like the M/F stories. I get less email from men about my F/M stories.

I think that the Internet has allowed women to come out as spanking bottoms. Most of the spanking blogs are written by intelligent, articulate women who love to be spanked. Women see these blogs and I think that it assures them that they’re not alone.

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