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	<title>Comments on: [Greta Christina] Multiple Marriage and the Texas Polygamy Case</title>
	<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661</link>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Nancy Silver</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-60806</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-60806</guid>
					<description>I want to thank you for your article. I am not part of some strange religious cult. I believe That this earth belongs to God and as long as it is spinning his law is balid.Christians often quote Is 40 v8 which says the grass withers the flower fades but the word of God is forever.Hebrews 13 v,8 says Jesus is the same yesterday,today and tomarrow.Then In Matthew 5 v 17-22 Jesus himself says think not that I am come to change the law or the words of the prophets for varily I say unto you Not one jot not one title shall pass from the law til heaven and earth pass away and all be fulfilled.Those that keep the statures and teach as the same shall be concidered great in the kingdom of heaven but those that break the least of these cimmandments and teach man to do so shall be concidered the least in the kingdom of God. I live what I believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to thank you for your article. I am not part of some strange religious cult. I believe That this earth belongs to God and as long as it is spinning his law is balid.Christians often quote Is 40 v8 which says the grass withers the flower fades but the word of God is forever.Hebrews 13 v,8 says Jesus is the same yesterday,today and tomarrow.Then In Matthew 5 v 17-22 Jesus himself says think not that I am come to change the law or the words of the prophets for varily I say unto you Not one jot not one title shall pass from the law til heaven and earth pass away and all be fulfilled.Those that keep the statures and teach as the same shall be concidered great in the kingdom of heaven but those that break the least of these cimmandments and teach man to do so shall be concidered the least in the kingdom of God. I live what I believe.
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		<title>by: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15768</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 19:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15768</guid>
					<description>I have a question about the consequences of legal polygamy. How many spouses is too many? Is there no such number? If marriage in this way conveys the same legal benefits of usual marriage, could an entire cult become a single married entity? Is that a problem? (I don't know enough about law to speculate)

Legalized polygamy wouldn't bother me, by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question about the consequences of legal polygamy. How many spouses is too many? Is there no such number? If marriage in this way conveys the same legal benefits of usual marriage, could an entire cult become a single married entity? Is that a problem? (I don&#8217;t know enough about law to speculate)</p>
<p>Legalized polygamy wouldn&#8217;t bother me, by the way.
</p>
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		<title>by: The Uncredible Hallq</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15741</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 06:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15741</guid>
					<description>C. L. Hanson: "The thing is that bigamy is notoriously difficult to prosecute, so making it illegal in cases where it involves consenting adults does nothing but push it underground. Legalization would create a paper trail that would help those who are in such marriages against their will to seek legal recourse. Logically, since marriage is a legal contract, a new legal marriage would affect existing marriage contracts, so taking a second spouse against the will of the first would be grounds to sue for divorce. This would be far more helpul (than criminal charges) for those women who want to get out of such marriages while at the same time simplifying life for those cases that are really consensual."

I suffer from extreme legal ignorance here, but this comment fosters the impression I have, that you can in theory be prosecuted for bigamy even if you don't try to obtain multiple marriage licenses, yes? We could repeal those laws to keep it from going underground, and yet not provide any legal structures to actively support polygamy. Trying to do that would be   a headache, though Ben's suggestion might be a start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C. L. Hanson: &#8220;The thing is that bigamy is notoriously difficult to prosecute, so making it illegal in cases where it involves consenting adults does nothing but push it underground. Legalization would create a paper trail that would help those who are in such marriages against their will to seek legal recourse. Logically, since marriage is a legal contract, a new legal marriage would affect existing marriage contracts, so taking a second spouse against the will of the first would be grounds to sue for divorce. This would be far more helpul (than criminal charges) for those women who want to get out of such marriages while at the same time simplifying life for those cases that are really consensual.&#8221;</p>
<p>I suffer from extreme legal ignorance here, but this comment fosters the impression I have, that you can in theory be prosecuted for bigamy even if you don&#8217;t try to obtain multiple marriage licenses, yes? We could repeal those laws to keep it from going underground, and yet not provide any legal structures to actively support polygamy. Trying to do that would be   a headache, though Ben&#8217;s suggestion might be a start.
</p>
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		<title>by: valdemar</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15715</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 17:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15715</guid>
					<description>If marriage is for the procreation of children in the way 'God intended', as some argue, why is polygamy/polyandry so wrong? So long as it includes at least one male and one female...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If marriage is for the procreation of children in the way &#8216;God intended&#8217;, as some argue, why is polygamy/polyandry so wrong? So long as it includes at least one male and one female&#8230;
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		<title>by: watercat</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15691</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 02:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15691</guid>
					<description>Here's a word you should look up, C.L.;

         C-O-N-S-E-N-T</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a word you should look up, C.L.;</p>
<p>         C-O-N-S-E-N-T
</p>
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		<title>by: C. L. Hanson</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15677</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 18:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15677</guid>
					<description>Actually, I think legalization is a good solution even for cases that aren't egalitarian and might potentially be abusive.  The reason is related to your observation that the polygamists aren't being prosecuted for bigamy.

The thing is that bigamy is notoriously difficult to prosecute, so making it illegal in cases where it involves consenting adults does nothing but push it underground.  Legalization would create a paper trail that would help those who are in such marriages against their will to seek legal recourse.  Logically, since marriage is a legal contract, a new legal marriage would affect existing marriage contracts, so taking a second spouse against the will of the first would be grounds to sue for divorce.  This would be far more helpul (than criminal charges) for those women who want to get out of such marriages while at the same time simplifying life for those cases that are really consensual.

In the case of the FLDS -- while it's very likely that there's some serious abuse going on -- the fact that their entire community was pushed into secrecy means that the authorities were unable to find legitimate evidence and accusations against those people in the community who are most likely guilty.  It looks very much like the raid -- as it was carried out -- was completely illegal and unconstitutional, and hence counterproductive.  We've been having quite a heated debate about this point (among Mormons and ex-Mormon atheists) on the Main Street Plaza Blog &lt;a href="http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=290" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  It's very similar to the problem with criminalizing prostitution: it's harder to separate out and prosecute the cases of actual abuse or exploitation when the activities of consenting adults are lumped together in the same (il)legal category.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I think legalization is a good solution even for cases that aren&#8217;t egalitarian and might potentially be abusive.  The reason is related to your observation that the polygamists aren&#8217;t being prosecuted for bigamy.</p>
<p>The thing is that bigamy is notoriously difficult to prosecute, so making it illegal in cases where it involves consenting adults does nothing but push it underground.  Legalization would create a paper trail that would help those who are in such marriages against their will to seek legal recourse.  Logically, since marriage is a legal contract, a new legal marriage would affect existing marriage contracts, so taking a second spouse against the will of the first would be grounds to sue for divorce.  This would be far more helpul (than criminal charges) for those women who want to get out of such marriages while at the same time simplifying life for those cases that are really consensual.</p>
<p>In the case of the FLDS &#8212; while it&#8217;s very likely that there&#8217;s some serious abuse going on &#8212; the fact that their entire community was pushed into secrecy means that the authorities were unable to find legitimate evidence and accusations against those people in the community who are most likely guilty.  It looks very much like the raid &#8212; as it was carried out &#8212; was completely illegal and unconstitutional, and hence counterproductive.  We&#8217;ve been having quite a heated debate about this point (among Mormons and ex-Mormon atheists) on the Main Street Plaza Blog <a href="http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=290" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  It&#8217;s very similar to the problem with criminalizing prostitution: it&#8217;s harder to separate out and prosecute the cases of actual abuse or exploitation when the activities of consenting adults are lumped together in the same (il)legal category.
</p>
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		<title>by: watercat</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15646</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 03:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15646</guid>
					<description>Three thoughts...

Along with a study to see if the coerced variety outnumbers the consensual variety within multiple unions, there should also be a study comparing percentages of abuse in multiple unions with that in binary ones.  

From what I've seen, the Fondle Little Daughters Sect rarely bothered to obtain official marriage certificates from the state, so technically they aren't guilty of bigamy in most cases.

IMHO the slippery slope arguments are inherently dishonest.  For example,
This group has two characteristics: (a) polyamorous, (b) abusive: 
(b) is bad, therefore we should outlaw (a).  WTF? That sounds too stupid an argument for anyone to ever make, but substitute gay for (a), and pedophile for (b), and it sounds awfully familiar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three thoughts&#8230;</p>
<p>Along with a study to see if the coerced variety outnumbers the consensual variety within multiple unions, there should also be a study comparing percentages of abuse in multiple unions with that in binary ones.  </p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve seen, the Fondle Little Daughters Sect rarely bothered to obtain official marriage certificates from the state, so technically they aren&#8217;t guilty of bigamy in most cases.</p>
<p>IMHO the slippery slope arguments are inherently dishonest.  For example,<br />
This group has two characteristics: (a) polyamorous, (b) abusive:<br />
(b) is bad, therefore we should outlaw (a).  WTF? That sounds too stupid an argument for anyone to ever make, but substitute gay for (a), and pedophile for (b), and it sounds awfully familiar.
</p>
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		<title>by: Caius</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15642</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 01:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15642</guid>
					<description>I get particularly peeved when the slippery slope argument gets used against gay marriage, in a slightly different way: that if gay marriage is legalized, the next step will be polygamy, and then marriages to animals and children. And actually, this holds a drop of water if you consider that the argument for gay marriage is commonly phrased as, people should be allowed to marry whoever they want. Of course, taking that at face value is pretty disingenuous, when there are much more nuanced, compelling, and thorough arguments for gay marriage (the most thorough I've seen for why gay marriage would be an extremely positive move for society was in a series of articles by Jonathan Rauch, the first of which is here: http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/gay_marriage_1_the_case_for_marriage/index.html). I really recommend you take a look if you're interested in the issue.

The slippery slope argument is a cop-out, and a stupid one, because it basically grants that the other person's argument is correct. When Bill O'Reilly says, "I'm against gay marriage because they'll allow polygamy next", he's essentially saying, "gay marriage isn't wrong in itself, but it's a good buffer zone that keeps polygamy at bay". Which is a pretty stupid argument, I hope you'll agree, even if you're in staunch opposition to polygamy.

I'm fairly skeptical of polygamy (and polyamory as a tenable model for a long-term relationship), mainly on practical grounds of the possibility of that kind of relationship and commitment between more than two people, but I'm willing to admit my ignorance on the subject and defer to those with more experience (or better, scientific data).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get particularly peeved when the slippery slope argument gets used against gay marriage, in a slightly different way: that if gay marriage is legalized, the next step will be polygamy, and then marriages to animals and children. And actually, this holds a drop of water if you consider that the argument for gay marriage is commonly phrased as, people should be allowed to marry whoever they want. Of course, taking that at face value is pretty disingenuous, when there are much more nuanced, compelling, and thorough arguments for gay marriage (the most thorough I&#8217;ve seen for why gay marriage would be an extremely positive move for society was in a series of articles by Jonathan Rauch, the first of which is here: <a href="http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/gay_marriage_1_the_case_for_marriage/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/gay_marriage_1_the_case_for_marriage/index.html</a>). I really recommend you take a look if you&#8217;re interested in the issue.</p>
<p>The slippery slope argument is a cop-out, and a stupid one, because it basically grants that the other person&#8217;s argument is correct. When Bill O&#8217;Reilly says, &#8220;I&#8217;m against gay marriage because they&#8217;ll allow polygamy next&#8221;, he&#8217;s essentially saying, &#8220;gay marriage isn&#8217;t wrong in itself, but it&#8217;s a good buffer zone that keeps polygamy at bay&#8221;. Which is a pretty stupid argument, I hope you&#8217;ll agree, even if you&#8217;re in staunch opposition to polygamy.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m fairly skeptical of polygamy (and polyamory as a tenable model for a long-term relationship), mainly on practical grounds of the possibility of that kind of relationship and commitment between more than two people, but I&#8217;m willing to admit my ignorance on the subject and defer to those with more experience (or better, scientific data).
</p>
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		<title>by: Ben Ostrowsky</title>
		<link>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15625</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 15:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/greta-christina-multiple-marriage-and-the-texas-polygamy-case/661#comment-15625</guid>
					<description>It seems to me that people who want to marry several sweeties ought to be allowed to.  There's a load of rights that come with marriage (especially as opposed to civil union), and I see no reason to deny those rights.

There are some rights that are economically impractical unless we reinterpret "anyone married to an employee is eligible for..." as "every employee can designate one person who is eligible for...".  (Otherwise, professors would be getting hundreds of marriage proposals from students who can't afford tuition!)  Probably a lot of policies have already been rewritten in these terms, especially by the more enlightened (or at least less-troglodytic) employers.

I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that there are many more poly families doing a good job of raising kids than there are polygamous cults screwing kids up and/or just plain screwing kids.  We just don't see the good guys on Fox News because the police don't raid their homes.  That gives a horrible first impression to most viewers who think that poly familieswith kids mean "religious nutjobs molesting kids under the aegis of marriage" rather than "Heather has two mommies and two daddies, which is awfully convenient when Heather needs to get to her soccer game".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that people who want to marry several sweeties ought to be allowed to.  There&#8217;s a load of rights that come with marriage (especially as opposed to civil union), and I see no reason to deny those rights.</p>
<p>There are some rights that are economically impractical unless we reinterpret &#8220;anyone married to an employee is eligible for&#8230;&#8221; as &#8220;every employee can designate one person who is eligible for&#8230;&#8221;.  (Otherwise, professors would be getting hundreds of marriage proposals from students who can&#8217;t afford tuition!)  Probably a lot of policies have already been rewritten in these terms, especially by the more enlightened (or at least less-troglodytic) employers.</p>
<p>I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that there are many more poly families doing a good job of raising kids than there are polygamous cults screwing kids up and/or just plain screwing kids.  We just don&#8217;t see the good guys on Fox News because the police don&#8217;t raid their homes.  That gives a horrible first impression to most viewers who think that poly familieswith kids mean &#8220;religious nutjobs molesting kids under the aegis of marriage&#8221; rather than &#8220;Heather has two mommies and two daddies, which is awfully convenient when Heather needs to get to her soccer game&#8221;.
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